Where is the Netbeans 9.0?

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Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?

Nan Null
Thomas,

You probably didn't read into my reply.

First, calling "voicing concern" is whining is not very constructive.
You did not know what that was.  I didn't list out the conversations I
had (and who were in that conversation).

Second, suggesting no control over Oracle buy Sun would give
developers no choice is complete wrong.  Netbeans is an open source.
True to its nature, developers have a lot of control over hit.  As I
said "didn't read into my reply", they can fork it, they can just
abandon it, forcing Oracle to do something to Open Office (lucky that
I had an almost perfect example for this).  Even Oracle didn't go that
path, the code is still open and developers still can fork it.

Third, you implied I didn't do my to contribute and mentioning of
getting my refund is almost sounding insulting.

I did a few search, and I have a very strong reason to believe that
you, yourself, used my contribution.  I don't want to go into
specifics here anyway, but the point is that without knowing much and
pulling the "whining" and "demand pay back" sounds very
non-constructive to me.

Forth, you don't see much contribution from developers other than
Oracle.  Do you know why?  First, Oracle and Sun did not encourage
this.  When I provided code to them, they reformatted the code,
changed it around a bit to "conform" to the Netbeans' way.  They
improved naming, etc a bit.  All is good with me.  But after that,
there is zero indication of my contribution in this code.  No part of
the code say I have majority of the copyright of the code.
From the experience, I would say most other developers had the exact
same experience, because I was no different.

Glenn,

Thanks for the reply.  I can contribute or not depending on how I feel
the direction of people handling this project.  There are some project
like Ubuntu that had a lot of promise, but then the company's
responses to users complaint about their UI definitely alienated many
users and developers.  So open source in itself is not enough.

On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I wasn’t trying to be uncivil - but “voicing concern” over something you have no control over (ie the purchase of Sun by Oracle and the direction of Netbeans within Oracle) is simply whining.  While there have been many contributions to the code base over the years, the overwhelming majority of work - this is all just my impression - has always been done by Sun/Oracle employees.   Oracle probably no longer wanted to be involved to this extent and put Netbeans under Apache, hoping NB would become a true community effort.
>
> I’ve always been kind of free-loading off NB.   My contributions have always been just bug reporting (I was a member of something one release but can’t recall what it was called).  I just never had the time and/or patience to learn enough of NB’s underbelly to make a useful contribution.  I think I sometimes wished NB was a commercial product so I could just pay my license fee and that would be my contribution.  I guess that’s IntelliJ.  But I’ve been using NB for almost 20 years now - it’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
>
> Anyway, I’m keenly aware of my limited contributions to NB and, thus, try to keep my critiques of it constructive.  I didn’t consider your post very constructive.
>
> tom
>
>
>
>> On Oct 8, 2017, at 12:03 AM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Thomas,
>>
>> Let's keep it civil here.
>>
>> I did contributed to Netbeans and Java.  My voice of concern mean?
>> What do you think it means?  It means many things, depending if
>> actions were taken on it or not.
>>
>> I did voice my concern as a dream team member.
>>
>> What could be done?  If back then, some of the elite members or even
>> Geertjan took different action, it would have been better.
>> Maybe forking it?  Maybe stir up developers voice to make this Apache
>> thing happen much faster like Libre office?  Who knows.
>>
>> By the way, I left the dream team shortly afterward.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> What is your point - except to whine?  What does “I voiced my concern” mean?  Were you a shareholder?  If not, you didn’t really have a say in it, so voicing a concern, again, was just pointless whining - it’s not like anyone on the Netbeans Team had any say in the sale to Oracle.
>>>
>>> I’ve been using NB since ca. 1999 and continue to find it the most efficient IDE for my needs.  If you prefer IntelliJ - use that by all means!  Especially if you find NB “unacceptable”.  I’m sure the Netbeans team will refund you the money you spent on the IDE.  Just spare us the whining!
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> tom
>>>
>>>> On Oct 7, 2017, at 6:20 PM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> When Oracle purchased Sun, I was really concern about the their
>>>> support for Netbeans.  I did voice my concern.
>>>>
>>>> Look in those 7 years, how many  Netbeans has been released?
>>>> Quote from wikipedia:
>>>>
>>>> "NetBeans IDE 7.0 was released in April 2011. On August 1, 2011, the
>>>> NetBeans Team released NetBeans IDE 7.0.1, which has full support for
>>>> the official release of the Java SE 7 platform.[12]
>>>>
>>>> NetBeans IDE 7.3 was released in February 2013 which added support for
>>>> HTML5 and web technologies.[13]
>>>>
>>>> NetBeans IDE 7.4 was released on October 15, 2013.
>>>>
>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.0 was released on March 18, 2014.
>>>>
>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.1 was released on November 4, 2015.
>>>>
>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.2 was released on October 3, 2016."
>>>>
>>>> IntelliJ open projects, build, debug so fast.  I still love Netbeans
>>>> ways of things, but it's so slow.  When I  add or remove a Jar, it may
>>>> take forever.  Debug, build, etc.  Just impossible to work with.
>>>> This is unacceptable.
>>>>
>>>> Geertjan, what would you say about this situation?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> If you only promote apps that “will not stop at some point”, your list ought to have zero entries as all software will stop being supported “at some point”.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as Netbeans is concerned, I believe it has recently been transitioned to become an Apache project.  So it will continue being developed - but how well seems to now depend on the community rather than Sun/Oracle’s past largesse.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, Netbeans can manage projects that are JDK 9.  Most of the problems seem to come if you actually try to run the IDE itself with JDK 9.
>>>>>
>>>>> tom
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 6, 2017, at 12:16 PM, kupawlak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm also interested if NetBeans is still in development. We would like to add the software to our database  https://kubadownload.com/, but we promote only apps that are working and will not stop at some point. Any suggestion?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?

Thomas Wolf-7
I said “no control”.  I did not say “no choice”.   Sure, NB is open source and, in theory, its developers have influence by forking/whatever - but when most of the contributors work for Oracle, they effectively have no influence because they still have to please their bosses.

I did not mean to imply that you didn’t contribute to the source base.  Whatever you did contribute - thank you for that.  But influence over some small part of the source code itself doesn’t equate to having any say in Oracle decisions re Netbeans itself.  So voicing a concern when nobody (in power) listens - is pointless.  If I completely misjudged your influence over Oracle’s executive team, I apologize.

Tom

> On Oct 8, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thomas,
>
> You probably didn't read into my reply.
>
> First, calling "voicing concern" is whining is not very constructive.
> You did not know what that was.  I didn't list out the conversations I
> had (and who were in that conversation).
>
> Second, suggesting no control over Oracle buy Sun would give
> developers no choice is complete wrong.  Netbeans is an open source.
> True to its nature, developers have a lot of control over hit.  As I
> said "didn't read into my reply", they can fork it, they can just
> abandon it, forcing Oracle to do something to Open Office (lucky that
> I had an almost perfect example for this).  Even Oracle didn't go that
> path, the code is still open and developers still can fork it.
>
> Third, you implied I didn't do my to contribute and mentioning of
> getting my refund is almost sounding insulting.
>
> I did a few search, and I have a very strong reason to believe that
> you, yourself, used my contribution.  I don't want to go into
> specifics here anyway, but the point is that without knowing much and
> pulling the "whining" and "demand pay back" sounds very
> non-constructive to me.
>
> Forth, you don't see much contribution from developers other than
> Oracle.  Do you know why?  First, Oracle and Sun did not encourage
> this.  When I provided code to them, they reformatted the code,
> changed it around a bit to "conform" to the Netbeans' way.  They
> improved naming, etc a bit.  All is good with me.  But after that,
> there is zero indication of my contribution in this code.  No part of
> the code say I have majority of the copyright of the code.
> From the experience, I would say most other developers had the exact
> same experience, because I was no different.
>
> Glenn,
>
> Thanks for the reply.  I can contribute or not depending on how I feel
> the direction of people handling this project.  There are some project
> like Ubuntu that had a lot of promise, but then the company's
> responses to users complaint about their UI definitely alienated many
> users and developers.  So open source in itself is not enough.
>
>> On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I wasn’t trying to be uncivil - but “voicing concern” over something you have no control over (ie the purchase of Sun by Oracle and the direction of Netbeans within Oracle) is simply whining.  While there have been many contributions to the code base over the years, the overwhelming majority of work - this is all just my impression - has always been done by Sun/Oracle employees.   Oracle probably no longer wanted to be involved to this extent and put Netbeans under Apache, hoping NB would become a true community effort.
>>
>> I’ve always been kind of free-loading off NB.   My contributions have always been just bug reporting (I was a member of something one release but can’t recall what it was called).  I just never had the time and/or patience to learn enough of NB’s underbelly to make a useful contribution.  I think I sometimes wished NB was a commercial product so I could just pay my license fee and that would be my contribution.  I guess that’s IntelliJ.  But I’ve been using NB for almost 20 years now - it’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
>>
>> Anyway, I’m keenly aware of my limited contributions to NB and, thus, try to keep my critiques of it constructive.  I didn’t consider your post very constructive.
>>
>> tom
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 8, 2017, at 12:03 AM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thomas,
>>>
>>> Let's keep it civil here.
>>>
>>> I did contributed to Netbeans and Java.  My voice of concern mean?
>>> What do you think it means?  It means many things, depending if
>>> actions were taken on it or not.
>>>
>>> I did voice my concern as a dream team member.
>>>
>>> What could be done?  If back then, some of the elite members or even
>>> Geertjan took different action, it would have been better.
>>> Maybe forking it?  Maybe stir up developers voice to make this Apache
>>> thing happen much faster like Libre office?  Who knows.
>>>
>>> By the way, I left the dream team shortly afterward.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> What is your point - except to whine?  What does “I voiced my concern” mean?  Were you a shareholder?  If not, you didn’t really have a say in it, so voicing a concern, again, was just pointless whining - it’s not like anyone on the Netbeans Team had any say in the sale to Oracle.
>>>>
>>>> I’ve been using NB since ca. 1999 and continue to find it the most efficient IDE for my needs.  If you prefer IntelliJ - use that by all means!  Especially if you find NB “unacceptable”.  I’m sure the Netbeans team will refund you the money you spent on the IDE.  Just spare us the whining!
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>> tom
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 7, 2017, at 6:20 PM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> When Oracle purchased Sun, I was really concern about the their
>>>>> support for Netbeans.  I did voice my concern.
>>>>>
>>>>> Look in those 7 years, how many  Netbeans has been released?
>>>>> Quote from wikipedia:
>>>>>
>>>>> "NetBeans IDE 7.0 was released in April 2011. On August 1, 2011, the
>>>>> NetBeans Team released NetBeans IDE 7.0.1, which has full support for
>>>>> the official release of the Java SE 7 platform.[12]
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 7.3 was released in February 2013 which added support for
>>>>> HTML5 and web technologies.[13]
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 7.4 was released on October 15, 2013.
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.0 was released on March 18, 2014.
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.1 was released on November 4, 2015.
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.2 was released on October 3, 2016."
>>>>>
>>>>> IntelliJ open projects, build, debug so fast.  I still love Netbeans
>>>>> ways of things, but it's so slow.  When I  add or remove a Jar, it may
>>>>> take forever.  Debug, build, etc.  Just impossible to work with.
>>>>> This is unacceptable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Geertjan, what would you say about this situation?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> If you only promote apps that “will not stop at some point”, your list ought to have zero entries as all software will stop being supported “at some point”.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as Netbeans is concerned, I believe it has recently been transitioned to become an Apache project.  So it will continue being developed - but how well seems to now depend on the community rather than Sun/Oracle’s past largesse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, Netbeans can manage projects that are JDK 9.  Most of the problems seem to come if you actually try to run the IDE itself with JDK 9.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 6, 2017, at 12:16 PM, kupawlak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm also interested if NetBeans is still in development. We would like to add the software to our database  https://kubadownload.com/, but we promote only apps that are working and will not stop at some point. Any suggestion?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?

Alexander Schell
In reply to this post by kenjinboy
Netbeans was - Starting back in the times it was still called 'Forte' - always free to use.
We never had to spent a single cent.
That means that there is *no base from where a claim for a new Netbeans version could be raised*.
To do so - Completely unjustified - is just whining.
Netbeans is a community project and it evolves due to community contributions. And even contributing does not create any kind of claim.
So, guys and gals: Please stop littering this mailing list with your whining.


Von Samsung Mobile gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Nam Nguyen
Datum:2017.10.08 16:27 (GMT+01:00)
Betreff: [nbusers] Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?

Thomas,

You probably didn't read into my reply.

First, calling "voicing concern" is whining is not very constructive.
You did not know what that was.  I didn't list out the conversations I
had (and who were in that conversation).

Second, suggesting no control over Oracle buy Sun would give
developers no choice is complete wrong.  Netbeans is an open source.
True to its nature, developers have a lot of control over hit.  As I
said "didn't read into my reply", they can fork it, they can just
abandon it, forcing Oracle to do something to Open Office (lucky that
I had an almost perfect example for this).  Even Oracle didn't go that
path, the code is still open and developers still can fork it.

Third, you implied I didn't do my to contribute and mentioning of
getting my refund is almost sounding insulting.

I did a few search, and I have a very strong reason to believe that
you, yourself, used my contribution.  I don't want to go into
specifics here anyway, but the point is that without knowing much and
pulling the "whining" and "demand pay back" sounds very
non-constructive to me.

Forth, you don't see much contribution from developers other than
Oracle.  Do you know why?  First, Oracle and Sun did not encourage
this.  When I provided code to them, they reformatted the code,
changed it around a bit to "conform" to the Netbeans' way.  They
improved naming, etc a bit.  All is good with me.  But after that,
there is zero indication of my contribution in this code.  No part of
the code say I have majority of the copyright of the code.
From the experience, I would say most other developers had the exact
same experience, because I was no different.

Glenn,

Thanks for the reply.  I can contribute or not depending on how I feel
the direction of people handling this project.  There are some project
like Ubuntu that had a lot of promise, but then the company's
responses to users complaint about their UI definitely alienated many
users and developers.  So open source in itself is not enough.

On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I wasn’t trying to be uncivil - but “voicing concern” over something you have no control over (ie the purchase of Sun by Oracle and the direction of Netbeans within Oracle) is simply whining.  While there have been many contributions to the code base over the years, the overwhelming majority of work - this is all just my impression - has always been done by Sun/Oracle employees.   Oracle probably no longer wanted to be involved to this extent and put Netbeans under Apache, hoping NB would become a true community effort.
>
> I’ve always been kind of free-loading off NB.   My contributions have always been just bug reporting (I was a member of something one release but can’t recall what it was called).  I just never had the time and/or patience to learn enough of NB’s underbelly to make a useful contribution.  I think I sometimes wished NB was a commercial product so I could just pay my license fee and that would be my contribution.  I guess that’s IntelliJ.  But I’ve been using NB for almost 20 years now - it’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
>
> Anyway, I’m keenly aware of my limited contributions to NB and, thus, try to keep my critiques of it constructive.  I didn’t consider your post very constructive.
>
> tom
>
>
>
>> On Oct 8, 2017, at 12:03 AM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Thomas,
>>
>> Let's keep it civil here.
>>
>> I did contributed to Netbeans and Java.  My voice of concern mean?
>> What do you think it means?  It means many things, depending if
>> actions were taken on it or not.
>>
>> I did voice my concern as a dream team member.
>>
>> What could be done?  If back then, some of the elite members or even
>> Geertjan took different action, it would have been better.
>> Maybe forking it?  Maybe stir up developers voice to make this Apache
>> thing happen much faster like Libre office?  Who knows.
>>
>> By the way, I left the dream team shortly afterward.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> What is your point - except to whine?  What does “I voiced my concern” mean?  Were you a shareholder?  If not, you didn’t really have a say in it, so voicing a concern, again, was just pointless whining - it’s not like anyone on the Netbeans Team had any say in the sale to Oracle.
>>>
>>> I’ve been using NB since ca. 1999 and continue to find it the most efficient IDE for my needs.  If you prefer IntelliJ - use that by all means!  Especially if you find NB “unacceptable”.  I’m sure the Netbeans team will refund you the money you spent on the IDE.  Just spare us the whining!
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> tom
>>>
>>>> On Oct 7, 2017, at 6:20 PM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> When Oracle purchased Sun, I was really concern about the their
>>>> support for Netbeans.  I did voice my concern.
>>>>
>>>> Look in those 7 years, how many  Netbeans has been released?
>>>> Quote from wikipedia:
>>>>
>>>> "NetBeans IDE 7.0 was released in April 2011. On August 1, 2011, the
>>>> NetBeans Team released NetBeans IDE 7.0.1, which has full support for
>>>> the official release of the Java SE 7 platform.[12]
>>>>
>>>> NetBeans IDE 7.3 was released in February 2013 which added support for
>>>> HTML5 and web technologies.[13]
>>>>
>>>> NetBeans IDE 7.4 was released on October 15, 2013.
>>>>
>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.0 was released on March 18, 2014.
>>>>
>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.1 was released on November 4, 2015.
>>>>
>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.2 was released on October 3, 2016."
>>>>
>>>> IntelliJ open projects, build, debug so fast.  I still love Netbeans
>>>> ways of things, but it's so slow.  When I  add or remove a Jar, it may
>>>> take forever.  Debug, build, etc.  Just impossible to work with.
>>>> This is unacceptable.
>>>>
>>>> Geertjan, what would you say about this situation?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> If you only promote apps that “will not stop at some point”, your list ought to have zero entries as all software will stop being supported “at some point”.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as Netbeans is concerned, I believe it has recently been transitioned to become an Apache project.  So it will continue being developed - but how well seems to now depend on the community rather than Sun/Oracle’s past largesse.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, Netbeans can manage projects that are JDK 9.  Most of the problems seem to come if you actually try to run the IDE itself with JDK 9.
>>>>>
>>>>> tom
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 6, 2017, at 12:16 PM, kupawlak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm also interested if NetBeans is still in development. We would like to add the software to our database  https://kubadownload.com/, but we promote only apps that are working and will not stop at some point. Any suggestion?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?

Nan Null
In reply to this post by Thomas Wolf-7
Just to be clear, I didn't mean to say to control "Oracle", and that
also doesn't mean that I wanted to say "not to influence them" either.
That sounds like a conflict.  However, it's not so.  It just means
either ways (or both) work, would be good for Netbeans.

So let's not dive into the word "control Oracle" and keeping cranking
at it.  That's not the point.

The developers worked for Oracle, I understand they have family or
have bills to pay.  But sometimes, a hard decision must be made.  If
they just want to work for money, don't care much about an "open
source" project, then that probably said enough about Netbeans and why
it failed.

But if they wanted to work for something of its mission of being an
open development IDE, then maybe they should have known to leave.

Clearly, at this point, we know that for whatever reason, Oracle is
now abandoning it.  So, if developers left Netbeans en-massed, they
probably have done it earlier as OpenOffice has shown.  That would
save years of behind the curve for Netbeans (compared to other IDE).
They wouldn't lose so much users and market share.

Users have learned other IDE and started to get used to them, it would
be much harder now.  Not impossible, but definitely not very
desirable.

Not listening to developers proved to be very fatal.  I also suggested
early on that Netbeans embraces Android.  That was rejected as
speculation because we don't know if Android successful or not.  Well,
speculation is one thing, vision is another.  Maybe luck is also
another.

But even more important, the conflict of interest between Oracle and
Android just make Netbeans hard to succeed right at that point.  It
was deem to fail right 7 years ago.

Another thing was that they stripped the IDE off the GUI development
of JEE.  That's because of their own JDeveloper's money making (or
losing) product.
That's another important indication to any developer working on
Netbeans to move on.

So, we knew along time ago what Netbeans would become from all the facts.

There was only one reasonable choice for the Netbeans developers at
that point: leave it to help it.

Why I say it again now?  Because if the Netbeans leaderships move to
Apache and become a majority of it, I will definitely not join it. My
impact will be minimal, but I think the rest can be known by now what
will happen regardless.  As I said, it's not just open source, it's
about whether the project listens to developers and make a strong/hard
decision when the fate is clear.  If they could not make such a
decision, they don't get my vote.





On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 12:08 PM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I said “no control”.  I did not say “no choice”.   Sure, NB is open source and, in theory, its developers have influence by forking/whatever - but when most of the contributors work for Oracle, they effectively have no influence because they still have to please their bosses.
>
> I did not mean to imply that you didn’t contribute to the source base.  Whatever you did contribute - thank you for that.  But influence over some small part of the source code itself doesn’t equate to having any say in Oracle decisions re Netbeans itself.  So voicing a concern when nobody (in power) listens - is pointless.  If I completely misjudged your influence over Oracle’s executive team, I apologize.
>
> Tom
>
>> On Oct 8, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Thomas,
>>
>> You probably didn't read into my reply.
>>
>> First, calling "voicing concern" is whining is not very constructive.
>> You did not know what that was.  I didn't list out the conversations I
>> had (and who were in that conversation).
>>
>> Second, suggesting no control over Oracle buy Sun would give
>> developers no choice is complete wrong.  Netbeans is an open source.
>> True to its nature, developers have a lot of control over hit.  As I
>> said "didn't read into my reply", they can fork it, they can just
>> abandon it, forcing Oracle to do something to Open Office (lucky that
>> I had an almost perfect example for this).  Even Oracle didn't go that
>> path, the code is still open and developers still can fork it.
>>
>> Third, you implied I didn't do my to contribute and mentioning of
>> getting my refund is almost sounding insulting.
>>
>> I did a few search, and I have a very strong reason to believe that
>> you, yourself, used my contribution.  I don't want to go into
>> specifics here anyway, but the point is that without knowing much and
>> pulling the "whining" and "demand pay back" sounds very
>> non-constructive to me.
>>
>> Forth, you don't see much contribution from developers other than
>> Oracle.  Do you know why?  First, Oracle and Sun did not encourage
>> this.  When I provided code to them, they reformatted the code,
>> changed it around a bit to "conform" to the Netbeans' way.  They
>> improved naming, etc a bit.  All is good with me.  But after that,
>> there is zero indication of my contribution in this code.  No part of
>> the code say I have majority of the copyright of the code.
>> From the experience, I would say most other developers had the exact
>> same experience, because I was no different.
>>
>> Glenn,
>>
>> Thanks for the reply.  I can contribute or not depending on how I feel
>> the direction of people handling this project.  There are some project
>> like Ubuntu that had a lot of promise, but then the company's
>> responses to users complaint about their UI definitely alienated many
>> users and developers.  So open source in itself is not enough.
>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I wasn’t trying to be uncivil - but “voicing concern” over something you have no control over (ie the purchase of Sun by Oracle and the direction of Netbeans within Oracle) is simply whining.  While there have been many contributions to the code base over the years, the overwhelming majority of work - this is all just my impression - has always been done by Sun/Oracle employees.   Oracle probably no longer wanted to be involved to this extent and put Netbeans under Apache, hoping NB would become a true community effort.
>>>
>>> I’ve always been kind of free-loading off NB.   My contributions have always been just bug reporting (I was a member of something one release but can’t recall what it was called).  I just never had the time and/or patience to learn enough of NB’s underbelly to make a useful contribution.  I think I sometimes wished NB was a commercial product so I could just pay my license fee and that would be my contribution.  I guess that’s IntelliJ.  But I’ve been using NB for almost 20 years now - it’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I’m keenly aware of my limited contributions to NB and, thus, try to keep my critiques of it constructive.  I didn’t consider your post very constructive.
>>>
>>> tom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 8, 2017, at 12:03 AM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thomas,
>>>>
>>>> Let's keep it civil here.
>>>>
>>>> I did contributed to Netbeans and Java.  My voice of concern mean?
>>>> What do you think it means?  It means many things, depending if
>>>> actions were taken on it or not.
>>>>
>>>> I did voice my concern as a dream team member.
>>>>
>>>> What could be done?  If back then, some of the elite members or even
>>>> Geertjan took different action, it would have been better.
>>>> Maybe forking it?  Maybe stir up developers voice to make this Apache
>>>> thing happen much faster like Libre office?  Who knows.
>>>>
>>>> By the way, I left the dream team shortly afterward.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> What is your point - except to whine?  What does “I voiced my concern” mean?  Were you a shareholder?  If not, you didn’t really have a say in it, so voicing a concern, again, was just pointless whining - it’s not like anyone on the Netbeans Team had any say in the sale to Oracle.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve been using NB since ca. 1999 and continue to find it the most efficient IDE for my needs.  If you prefer IntelliJ - use that by all means!  Especially if you find NB “unacceptable”.  I’m sure the Netbeans team will refund you the money you spent on the IDE.  Just spare us the whining!
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>> tom
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 7, 2017, at 6:20 PM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When Oracle purchased Sun, I was really concern about the their
>>>>>> support for Netbeans.  I did voice my concern.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Look in those 7 years, how many  Netbeans has been released?
>>>>>> Quote from wikipedia:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "NetBeans IDE 7.0 was released in April 2011. On August 1, 2011, the
>>>>>> NetBeans Team released NetBeans IDE 7.0.1, which has full support for
>>>>>> the official release of the Java SE 7 platform.[12]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NetBeans IDE 7.3 was released in February 2013 which added support for
>>>>>> HTML5 and web technologies.[13]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NetBeans IDE 7.4 was released on October 15, 2013.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.0 was released on March 18, 2014.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.1 was released on November 4, 2015.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.2 was released on October 3, 2016."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IntelliJ open projects, build, debug so fast.  I still love Netbeans
>>>>>> ways of things, but it's so slow.  When I  add or remove a Jar, it may
>>>>>> take forever.  Debug, build, etc.  Just impossible to work with.
>>>>>> This is unacceptable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Geertjan, what would you say about this situation?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> If you only promote apps that “will not stop at some point”, your list ought to have zero entries as all software will stop being supported “at some point”.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as Netbeans is concerned, I believe it has recently been transitioned to become an Apache project.  So it will continue being developed - but how well seems to now depend on the community rather than Sun/Oracle’s past largesse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, Netbeans can manage projects that are JDK 9.  Most of the problems seem to come if you actually try to run the IDE itself with JDK 9.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> tom
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 6, 2017, at 12:16 PM, kupawlak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm also interested if NetBeans is still in development. We would like to add the software to our database  https://kubadownload.com/, but we promote only apps that are working and will not stop at some point. Any suggestion?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?

Nan Null
In reply to this post by Alexander Schell
What you wrote defies logics and not making any sense.

On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 12:33 PM, DealeyLama <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Netbeans was - Starting back in the times it was still called 'Forte' -
> always free to use.
> We never had to spent a single cent.
> That means that there is *no base from where a claim for a new Netbeans
> version could be raised*.
> To do so - Completely unjustified - is just whining.
> Netbeans is a community project and it evolves due to community
> contributions. And even contributing does not create any kind of claim.
> So, guys and gals: Please stop littering this mailing list with your
> whining.
>
>
> Von Samsung Mobile gesendet
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: Nam Nguyen
> Datum:2017.10.08 16:27 (GMT+01:00)
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: [nbusers] Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?
>
> Thomas,
>
> You probably didn't read into my reply.
>
> First, calling "voicing concern" is whining is not very constructive.
> You did not know what that was.  I didn't list out the conversations I
> had (and who were in that conversation).
>
> Second, suggesting no control over Oracle buy Sun would give
> developers no choice is complete wrong.  Netbeans is an open source.
> True to its nature, developers have a lot of control over hit.  As I
> said "didn't read into my reply", they can fork it, they can just
> abandon it, forcing Oracle to do something to Open Office (lucky that
> I had an almost perfect example for this).  Even Oracle didn't go that
> path, the code is still open and developers still can fork it.
>
> Third, you implied I didn't do my to contribute and mentioning of
> getting my refund is almost sounding insulting.
>
> I did a few search, and I have a very strong reason to believe that
> you, yourself, used my contribution.  I don't want to go into
> specifics here anyway, but the point is that without knowing much and
> pulling the "whining" and "demand pay back" sounds very
> non-constructive to me.
>
> Forth, you don't see much contribution from developers other than
> Oracle.  Do you know why?  First, Oracle and Sun did not encourage
> this.  When I provided code to them, they reformatted the code,
> changed it around a bit to "conform" to the Netbeans' way.  They
> improved naming, etc a bit.  All is good with me.  But after that,
> there is zero indication of my contribution in this code.  No part of
> the code say I have majority of the copyright of the code.
> From the experience, I would say most other developers had the exact
> same experience, because I was no different.
>
> Glenn,
>
> Thanks for the reply.  I can contribute or not depending on how I feel
> the direction of people handling this project.  There are some project
> like Ubuntu that had a lot of promise, but then the company's
> responses to users complaint about their UI definitely alienated many
> users and developers.  So open source in itself is not enough.
>
> On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I wasn’t trying to be uncivil - but “voicing concern” over something you
>> have no control over (ie the purchase of Sun by Oracle and the direction of
>> Netbeans within Oracle) is simply whining.  While there have been many
>> contributions to the code base over the years, the overwhelming majority of
>> work - this is all just my impression - has always been done by Sun/Oracle
>> employees.   Oracle probably no longer wanted to be involved to this extent
>> and put Netbeans under Apache, hoping NB would become a true community
>> effort.
>>
>> I’ve always been kind of free-loading off NB.   My contributions have
>> always been just bug reporting (I was a member of something one release but
>> can’t recall what it was called).  I just never had the time and/or patience
>> to learn enough of NB’s underbelly to make a useful contribution.  I think I
>> sometimes wished NB was a commercial product so I could just pay my license
>> fee and that would be my contribution.  I guess that’s IntelliJ.  But I’ve
>> been using NB for almost 20 years now - it’s hard to teach an old dog new
>> tricks.
>>
>> Anyway, I’m keenly aware of my limited contributions to NB and, thus, try
>> to keep my critiques of it constructive.  I didn’t consider your post very
>> constructive.
>>
>> tom
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 8, 2017, at 12:03 AM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thomas,
>>>
>>> Let's keep it civil here.
>>>
>>> I did contributed to Netbeans and Java.  My voice of concern mean?
>>> What do you think it means?  It means many things, depending if
>>> actions were taken on it or not.
>>>
>>> I did voice my concern as a dream team member.
>>>
>>> What could be done?  If back then, some of the elite members or even
>>> Geertjan took different action, it would have been better.
>>> Maybe forking it?  Maybe stir up developers voice to make this Apache
>>> thing happen much faster like Libre office?  Who knows.
>>>
>>> By the way, I left the dream team shortly afterward.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> What is your point - except to whine?  What does “I voiced my concern”
>>>> mean?  Were you a shareholder?  If not, you didn’t really have a say in it,
>>>> so voicing a concern, again, was just pointless whining - it’s not like
>>>> anyone on the Netbeans Team had any say in the sale to Oracle.
>>>>
>>>> I’ve been using NB since ca. 1999 and continue to find it the most
>>>> efficient IDE for my needs.  If you prefer IntelliJ - use that by all means!
>>>> Especially if you find NB “unacceptable”.  I’m sure the Netbeans team will
>>>> refund you the money you spent on the IDE.  Just spare us the whining!
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>> tom
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 7, 2017, at 6:20 PM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> When Oracle purchased Sun, I was really concern about the their
>>>>> support for Netbeans.  I did voice my concern.
>>>>>
>>>>> Look in those 7 years, how many  Netbeans has been released?
>>>>> Quote from wikipedia:
>>>>>
>>>>> "NetBeans IDE 7.0 was released in April 2011. On August 1, 2011, the
>>>>> NetBeans Team released NetBeans IDE 7.0.1, which has full support for
>>>>> the official release of the Java SE 7 platform.[12]
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 7.3 was released in February 2013 which added support for
>>>>> HTML5 and web technologies.[13]
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 7.4 was released on October 15, 2013.
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.0 was released on March 18, 2014.
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.1 was released on November 4, 2015.
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.2 was released on October 3, 2016."
>>>>>
>>>>> IntelliJ open projects, build, debug so fast.  I still love Netbeans
>>>>> ways of things, but it's so slow.  When I  add or remove a Jar, it may
>>>>> take forever.  Debug, build, etc.  Just impossible to work with.
>>>>> This is unacceptable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Geertjan, what would you say about this situation?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> If you only promote apps that “will not stop at some point”, your list
>>>>>> ought to have zero entries as all software will stop being supported “at
>>>>>> some point”.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as Netbeans is concerned, I believe it has recently been
>>>>>> transitioned to become an Apache project.  So it will continue being
>>>>>> developed - but how well seems to now depend on the community rather than
>>>>>> Sun/Oracle’s past largesse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, Netbeans can manage projects that are JDK 9.  Most of the
>>>>>> problems seem to come if you actually try to run the IDE itself with JDK 9.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 6, 2017, at 12:16 PM, kupawlak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm also interested if NetBeans is still in development. We would
>>>>>>> like to add the software to our database  https://kubadownload.com/, but we
>>>>>>> promote only apps that are working and will not stop at some point. Any
>>>>>>> suggestion?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?

Alexander Schell
In reply to this post by kenjinboy
That might be true for you...   :D


Von Samsung Mobile gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Nam Nguyen
Datum:2017.10.08 18:38 (GMT+01:00)
Betreff: [nbusers] Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?

What you wrote defies logics and not making any sense.

On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 12:33 PM, DealeyLama <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Netbeans was - Starting back in the times it was still called 'Forte' -
> always free to use.
> We never had to spent a single cent.
> That means that there is *no base from where a claim for a new Netbeans
> version could be raised*.
> To do so - Completely unjustified - is just whining.
> Netbeans is a community project and it evolves due to community
> contributions. And even contributing does not create any kind of claim.
> So, guys and gals: Please stop littering this mailing list with your
> whining.
>
>
> Von Samsung Mobile gesendet
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: Nam Nguyen
> Datum:2017.10.08 16:27 (GMT+01:00)
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: [nbusers] Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?
>
> Thomas,
>
> You probably didn't read into my reply.
>
> First, calling "voicing concern" is whining is not very constructive.
> You did not know what that was.  I didn't list out the conversations I
> had (and who were in that conversation).
>
> Second, suggesting no control over Oracle buy Sun would give
> developers no choice is complete wrong.  Netbeans is an open source.
> True to its nature, developers have a lot of control over hit.  As I
> said "didn't read into my reply", they can fork it, they can just
> abandon it, forcing Oracle to do something to Open Office (lucky that
> I had an almost perfect example for this).  Even Oracle didn't go that
> path, the code is still open and developers still can fork it.
>
> Third, you implied I didn't do my to contribute and mentioning of
> getting my refund is almost sounding insulting.
>
> I did a few search, and I have a very strong reason to believe that
> you, yourself, used my contribution.  I don't want to go into
> specifics here anyway, but the point is that without knowing much and
> pulling the "whining" and "demand pay back" sounds very
> non-constructive to me.
>
> Forth, you don't see much contribution from developers other than
> Oracle.  Do you know why?  First, Oracle and Sun did not encourage
> this.  When I provided code to them, they reformatted the code,
> changed it around a bit to "conform" to the Netbeans' way.  They
> improved naming, etc a bit.  All is good with me.  But after that,
> there is zero indication of my contribution in this code.  No part of
> the code say I have majority of the copyright of the code.
> From the experience, I would say most other developers had the exact
> same experience, because I was no different.
>
> Glenn,
>
> Thanks for the reply.  I can contribute or not depending on how I feel
> the direction of people handling this project.  There are some project
> like Ubuntu that had a lot of promise, but then the company's
> responses to users complaint about their UI definitely alienated many
> users and developers.  So open source in itself is not enough.
>
> On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I wasn’t trying to be uncivil - but “voicing concern” over something you
>> have no control over (ie the purchase of Sun by Oracle and the direction of
>> Netbeans within Oracle) is simply whining.  While there have been many
>> contributions to the code base over the years, the overwhelming majority of
>> work - this is all just my impression - has always been done by Sun/Oracle
>> employees.   Oracle probably no longer wanted to be involved to this extent
>> and put Netbeans under Apache, hoping NB would become a true community
>> effort.
>>
>> I’ve always been kind of free-loading off NB.   My contributions have
>> always been just bug reporting (I was a member of something one release but
>> can’t recall what it was called).  I just never had the time and/or patience
>> to learn enough of NB’s underbelly to make a useful contribution.  I think I
>> sometimes wished NB was a commercial product so I could just pay my license
>> fee and that would be my contribution.  I guess that’s IntelliJ.  But I’ve
>> been using NB for almost 20 years now - it’s hard to teach an old dog new
>> tricks.
>>
>> Anyway, I’m keenly aware of my limited contributions to NB and, thus, try
>> to keep my critiques of it constructive.  I didn’t consider your post very
>> constructive.
>>
>> tom
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 8, 2017, at 12:03 AM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thomas,
>>>
>>> Let's keep it civil here.
>>>
>>> I did contributed to Netbeans and Java.  My voice of concern mean?
>>> What do you think it means?  It means many things, depending if
>>> actions were taken on it or not.
>>>
>>> I did voice my concern as a dream team member.
>>>
>>> What could be done?  If back then, some of the elite members or even
>>> Geertjan took different action, it would have been better.
>>> Maybe forking it?  Maybe stir up developers voice to make this Apache
>>> thing happen much faster like Libre office?  Who knows.
>>>
>>> By the way, I left the dream team shortly afterward.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> What is your point - except to whine?  What does “I voiced my concern”
>>>> mean?  Were you a shareholder?  If not, you didn’t really have a say in it,
>>>> so voicing a concern, again, was just pointless whining - it’s not like
>>>> anyone on the Netbeans Team had any say in the sale to Oracle.
>>>>
>>>> I’ve been using NB since ca. 1999 and continue to find it the most
>>>> efficient IDE for my needs.  If you prefer IntelliJ - use that by all means!
>>>> Especially if you find NB “unacceptable”.  I’m sure the Netbeans team will
>>>> refund you the money you spent on the IDE.  Just spare us the whining!
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>> tom
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 7, 2017, at 6:20 PM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> When Oracle purchased Sun, I was really concern about the their
>>>>> support for Netbeans.  I did voice my concern.
>>>>>
>>>>> Look in those 7 years, how many  Netbeans has been released?
>>>>> Quote from wikipedia:
>>>>>
>>>>> "NetBeans IDE 7.0 was released in April 2011. On August 1, 2011, the
>>>>> NetBeans Team released NetBeans IDE 7.0.1, which has full support for
>>>>> the official release of the Java SE 7 platform.[12]
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 7.3 was released in February 2013 which added support for
>>>>> HTML5 and web technologies.[13]
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 7.4 was released on October 15, 2013.
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.0 was released on March 18, 2014.
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.1 was released on November 4, 2015.
>>>>>
>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.2 was released on October 3, 2016."
>>>>>
>>>>> IntelliJ open projects, build, debug so fast.  I still love Netbeans
>>>>> ways of things, but it's so slow.  When I  add or remove a Jar, it may
>>>>> take forever.  Debug, build, etc.  Just impossible to work with.
>>>>> This is unacceptable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Geertjan, what would you say about this situation?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> If you only promote apps that “will not stop at some point”, your list
>>>>>> ought to have zero entries as all software will stop being supported “at
>>>>>> some point”.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as Netbeans is concerned, I believe it has recently been
>>>>>> transitioned to become an Apache project.  So it will continue being
>>>>>> developed - but how well seems to now depend on the community rather than
>>>>>> Sun/Oracle’s past largesse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, Netbeans can manage projects that are JDK 9.  Most of the
>>>>>> problems seem to come if you actually try to run the IDE itself with JDK 9.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 6, 2017, at 12:16 PM, kupawlak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm also interested if NetBeans is still in development. We would
>>>>>>> like to add the software to our database  https://kubadownload.com/, but we
>>>>>>> promote only apps that are working and will not stop at some point. Any
>>>>>>> suggestion?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?

Nan Null
Good that you read my message.

On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 12:54 PM, DealeyLama <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That might be true for you...   :D
>
>
> Von Samsung Mobile gesendet
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: Nam Nguyen
> Datum:2017.10.08 18:38 (GMT+01:00)
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: [nbusers] Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?
>
> What you wrote defies logics and not making any sense.
>
> On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 12:33 PM, DealeyLama <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Netbeans was - Starting back in the times it was still called 'Forte' -
>> always free to use.
>> We never had to spent a single cent.
>> That means that there is *no base from where a claim for a new Netbeans
>> version could be raised*.
>> To do so - Completely unjustified - is just whining.
>> Netbeans is a community project and it evolves due to community
>> contributions. And even contributing does not create any kind of claim.
>> So, guys and gals: Please stop littering this mailing list with your
>> whining.
>>
>>
>> Von Samsung Mobile gesendet
>>
>>
>> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
>> Von: Nam Nguyen
>> Datum:2017.10.08 16:27 (GMT+01:00)
>> An: [hidden email]
>> Betreff: [nbusers] Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?
>>
>> Thomas,
>>
>> You probably didn't read into my reply.
>>
>> First, calling "voicing concern" is whining is not very constructive.
>> You did not know what that was.  I didn't list out the conversations I
>> had (and who were in that conversation).
>>
>> Second, suggesting no control over Oracle buy Sun would give
>> developers no choice is complete wrong.  Netbeans is an open source.
>> True to its nature, developers have a lot of control over hit.  As I
>> said "didn't read into my reply", they can fork it, they can just
>> abandon it, forcing Oracle to do something to Open Office (lucky that
>> I had an almost perfect example for this).  Even Oracle didn't go that
>> path, the code is still open and developers still can fork it.
>>
>> Third, you implied I didn't do my to contribute and mentioning of
>> getting my refund is almost sounding insulting.
>>
>> I did a few search, and I have a very strong reason to believe that
>> you, yourself, used my contribution.  I don't want to go into
>> specifics here anyway, but the point is that without knowing much and
>> pulling the "whining" and "demand pay back" sounds very
>> non-constructive to me.
>>
>> Forth, you don't see much contribution from developers other than
>> Oracle.  Do you know why?  First, Oracle and Sun did not encourage
>> this.  When I provided code to them, they reformatted the code,
>> changed it around a bit to "conform" to the Netbeans' way.  They
>> improved naming, etc a bit.  All is good with me.  But after that,
>> there is zero indication of my contribution in this code.  No part of
>> the code say I have majority of the copyright of the code.
>> From the experience, I would say most other developers had the exact
>> same experience, because I was no different.
>>
>> Glenn,
>>
>> Thanks for the reply.  I can contribute or not depending on how I feel
>> the direction of people handling this project.  There are some project
>> like Ubuntu that had a lot of promise, but then the company's
>> responses to users complaint about their UI definitely alienated many
>> users and developers.  So open source in itself is not enough.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I wasn’t trying to be uncivil - but “voicing concern” over something you
>>> have no control over (ie the purchase of Sun by Oracle and the direction
>>> of
>>> Netbeans within Oracle) is simply whining.  While there have been many
>>> contributions to the code base over the years, the overwhelming majority
>>> of
>>> work - this is all just my impression - has always been done by
>>> Sun/Oracle
>>> employees.   Oracle probably no longer wanted to be involved to this
>>> extent
>>> and put Netbeans under Apache, hoping NB would become a true community
>>> effort.
>>>
>>> I’ve always been kind of free-loading off NB.   My contributions have
>>> always been just bug reporting (I was a member of something one release
>>> but
>>> can’t recall what it was called).  I just never had the time and/or
>>> patience
>>> to learn enough of NB’s underbelly to make a useful contribution.  I
>>> think I
>>> sometimes wished NB was a commercial product so I could just pay my
>>> license
>>> fee and that would be my contribution.  I guess that’s IntelliJ.  But
>>> I’ve
>>> been using NB for almost 20 years now - it’s hard to teach an old dog new
>>> tricks.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I’m keenly aware of my limited contributions to NB and, thus, try
>>> to keep my critiques of it constructive.  I didn’t consider your post
>>> very
>>> constructive.
>>>
>>> tom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 8, 2017, at 12:03 AM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thomas,
>>>>
>>>> Let's keep it civil here.
>>>>
>>>> I did contributed to Netbeans and Java.  My voice of concern mean?
>>>> What do you think it means?  It means many things, depending if
>>>> actions were taken on it or not.
>>>>
>>>> I did voice my concern as a dream team member.
>>>>
>>>> What could be done?  If back then, some of the elite members or even
>>>> Geertjan took different action, it would have been better.
>>>> Maybe forking it?  Maybe stir up developers voice to make this Apache
>>>> thing happen much faster like Libre office?  Who knows.
>>>>
>>>> By the way, I left the dream team shortly afterward.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> What is your point - except to whine?  What does “I voiced my concern”
>>>>> mean?  Were you a shareholder?  If not, you didn’t really have a say in
>>>>> it,
>>>>> so voicing a concern, again, was just pointless whining - it’s not like
>>>>> anyone on the Netbeans Team had any say in the sale to Oracle.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve been using NB since ca. 1999 and continue to find it the most
>>>>> efficient IDE for my needs.  If you prefer IntelliJ - use that by all
>>>>> means!
>>>>> Especially if you find NB “unacceptable”.  I’m sure the Netbeans team
>>>>> will
>>>>> refund you the money you spent on the IDE.  Just spare us the whining!
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>> tom
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 7, 2017, at 6:20 PM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When Oracle purchased Sun, I was really concern about the their
>>>>>> support for Netbeans.  I did voice my concern.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Look in those 7 years, how many  Netbeans has been released?
>>>>>> Quote from wikipedia:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "NetBeans IDE 7.0 was released in April 2011. On August 1, 2011, the
>>>>>> NetBeans Team released NetBeans IDE 7.0.1, which has full support for
>>>>>> the official release of the Java SE 7 platform.[12]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NetBeans IDE 7.3 was released in February 2013 which added support for
>>>>>> HTML5 and web technologies.[13]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NetBeans IDE 7.4 was released on October 15, 2013.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.0 was released on March 18, 2014.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.1 was released on November 4, 2015.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NetBeans IDE 8.2 was released on October 3, 2016."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IntelliJ open projects, build, debug so fast.  I still love Netbeans
>>>>>> ways of things, but it's so slow.  When I  add or remove a Jar, it may
>>>>>> take forever.  Debug, build, etc.  Just impossible to work with.
>>>>>> This is unacceptable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Geertjan, what would you say about this situation?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> If you only promote apps that “will not stop at some point”, your
>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>> ought to have zero entries as all software will stop being supported
>>>>>>> “at
>>>>>>> some point”.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as Netbeans is concerned, I believe it has recently been
>>>>>>> transitioned to become an Apache project.  So it will continue being
>>>>>>> developed - but how well seems to now depend on the community rather
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> Sun/Oracle’s past largesse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, Netbeans can manage projects that are JDK 9.  Most of the
>>>>>>> problems seem to come if you actually try to run the IDE itself with
>>>>>>> JDK 9.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> tom
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 6, 2017, at 12:16 PM, kupawlak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm also interested if NetBeans is still in development. We would
>>>>>>>> like to add the software to our database  https://kubadownload.com/,
>>>>>>>> but we
>>>>>>>> promote only apps that are working and will not stop at some point.
>>>>>>>> Any
>>>>>>>> suggestion?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?

geertjan.wielenga@oracle.com
In reply to this post by Nan Null

Anyone interested in facts should read the facts and the facts are here:


In no way or shape at all is Oracle abandoning NetBeans.

Now excuse me while I, an Oracle employee, continue contributing to NetBeans via Apache, along with other Oracle employees and many others, via this project:


Many modules have already been reviewed:


I would prefer it if nobody would reply to this e-mail. I would prefer it if this mail thread ends right here and that everyone spends the time and energy the would have spent on this thread on reviewing modules and relicensing code to Apache:

Thanks,


Geertjan Wielenga | Principal Product Manager
Phone: +31620320056 | 
Oracle Developer Tools

ORACLE Netherlands | Hertogswetering 163-167 | 3543 AS Utrecht | Netherlands


Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment

On 8 Oct 2017, at 18:33, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to say to control "Oracle", and that
also doesn't mean that I wanted to say "not to influence them" either.
That sounds like a conflict.  However, it's not so.  It just means
either ways (or both) work, would be good for Netbeans.

So let's not dive into the word "control Oracle" and keeping cranking
at it.  That's not the point.

The developers worked for Oracle, I understand they have family or
have bills to pay.  But sometimes, a hard decision must be made.  If
they just want to work for money, don't care much about an "open
source" project, then that probably said enough about Netbeans and why
it failed.

But if they wanted to work for something of its mission of being an
open development IDE, then maybe they should have known to leave.

Clearly, at this point, we know that for whatever reason, Oracle is
now abandoning it.  So, if developers left Netbeans en-massed, they
probably have done it earlier as OpenOffice has shown.  That would
save years of behind the curve for Netbeans (compared to other IDE).
They wouldn't lose so much users and market share.

Users have learned other IDE and started to get used to them, it would
be much harder now.  Not impossible, but definitely not very
desirable.

Not listening to developers proved to be very fatal.  I also suggested
early on that Netbeans embraces Android.  That was rejected as
speculation because we don't know if Android successful or not.  Well,
speculation is one thing, vision is another.  Maybe luck is also
another.

But even more important, the conflict of interest between Oracle and
Android just make Netbeans hard to succeed right at that point.  It
was deem to fail right 7 years ago.

Another thing was that they stripped the IDE off the GUI development
of JEE.  That's because of their own JDeveloper's money making (or
losing) product.
That's another important indication to any developer working on
Netbeans to move on.

So, we knew along time ago what Netbeans would become from all the facts.

There was only one reasonable choice for the Netbeans developers at
that point: leave it to help it.

Why I say it again now?  Because if the Netbeans leaderships move to
Apache and become a majority of it, I will definitely not join it. My
impact will be minimal, but I think the rest can be known by now what
will happen regardless.  As I said, it's not just open source, it's
about whether the project listens to developers and make a strong/hard
decision when the fate is clear.  If they could not make such a
decision, they don't get my vote.





On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 12:08 PM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
I said “no control”.  I did not say “no choice”.   Sure, NB is open source and, in theory, its developers have influence by forking/whatever - but when most of the contributors work for Oracle, they effectively have no influence because they still have to please their bosses.

I did not mean to imply that you didn’t contribute to the source base.  Whatever you did contribute - thank you for that.  But influence over some small part of the source code itself doesn’t equate to having any say in Oracle decisions re Netbeans itself.  So voicing a concern when nobody (in power) listens - is pointless.  If I completely misjudged your influence over Oracle’s executive team, I apologize.

Tom

On Oct 8, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thomas,

You probably didn't read into my reply.

First, calling "voicing concern" is whining is not very constructive.
You did not know what that was.  I didn't list out the conversations I
had (and who were in that conversation).

Second, suggesting no control over Oracle buy Sun would give
developers no choice is complete wrong.  Netbeans is an open source.
True to its nature, developers have a lot of control over hit.  As I
said "didn't read into my reply", they can fork it, they can just
abandon it, forcing Oracle to do something to Open Office (lucky that
I had an almost perfect example for this).  Even Oracle didn't go that
path, the code is still open and developers still can fork it.

Third, you implied I didn't do my to contribute and mentioning of
getting my refund is almost sounding insulting.

I did a few search, and I have a very strong reason to believe that
you, yourself, used my contribution.  I don't want to go into
specifics here anyway, but the point is that without knowing much and
pulling the "whining" and "demand pay back" sounds very
non-constructive to me.

Forth, you don't see much contribution from developers other than
Oracle.  Do you know why?  First, Oracle and Sun did not encourage
this.  When I provided code to them, they reformatted the code,
changed it around a bit to "conform" to the Netbeans' way.  They
improved naming, etc a bit.  All is good with me.  But after that,
there is zero indication of my contribution in this code.  No part of
the code say I have majority of the copyright of the code.
From the experience, I would say most other developers had the exact
same experience, because I was no different.

Glenn,

Thanks for the reply.  I can contribute or not depending on how I feel
the direction of people handling this project.  There are some project
like Ubuntu that had a lot of promise, but then the company's
responses to users complaint about their UI definitely alienated many
users and developers.  So open source in itself is not enough.

On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
I wasn’t trying to be uncivil - but “voicing concern” over something you have no control over (ie the purchase of Sun by Oracle and the direction of Netbeans within Oracle) is simply whining.  While there have been many contributions to the code base over the years, the overwhelming majority of work - this is all just my impression - has always been done by Sun/Oracle employees.   Oracle probably no longer wanted to be involved to this extent and put Netbeans under Apache, hoping NB would become a true community effort.

I’ve always been kind of free-loading off NB.   My contributions have always been just bug reporting (I was a member of something one release but can’t recall what it was called).  I just never had the time and/or patience to learn enough of NB’s underbelly to make a useful contribution.  I think I sometimes wished NB was a commercial product so I could just pay my license fee and that would be my contribution.  I guess that’s IntelliJ.  But I’ve been using NB for almost 20 years now - it’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

Anyway, I’m keenly aware of my limited contributions to NB and, thus, try to keep my critiques of it constructive.  I didn’t consider your post very constructive.

tom



On Oct 8, 2017, at 12:03 AM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thomas,

Let's keep it civil here.

I did contributed to Netbeans and Java.  My voice of concern mean?
What do you think it means?  It means many things, depending if
actions were taken on it or not.

I did voice my concern as a dream team member.

What could be done?  If back then, some of the elite members or even
Geertjan took different action, it would have been better.
Maybe forking it?  Maybe stir up developers voice to make this Apache
thing happen much faster like Libre office?  Who knows.

By the way, I left the dream team shortly afterward.





On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
What is your point - except to whine?  What does “I voiced my concern” mean?  Were you a shareholder?  If not, you didn’t really have a say in it, so voicing a concern, again, was just pointless whining - it’s not like anyone on the Netbeans Team had any say in the sale to Oracle.

I’ve been using NB since ca. 1999 and continue to find it the most efficient IDE for my needs.  If you prefer IntelliJ - use that by all means!  Especially if you find NB “unacceptable”.  I’m sure the Netbeans team will refund you the money you spent on the IDE.  Just spare us the whining!

regards,
tom

On Oct 7, 2017, at 6:20 PM, Nam Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:

When Oracle purchased Sun, I was really concern about the their
support for Netbeans.  I did voice my concern.

Look in those 7 years, how many  Netbeans has been released?
Quote from wikipedia:

"NetBeans IDE 7.0 was released in April 2011. On August 1, 2011, the
NetBeans Team released NetBeans IDE 7.0.1, which has full support for
the official release of the Java SE 7 platform.[12]

NetBeans IDE 7.3 was released in February 2013 which added support for
HTML5 and web technologies.[13]

NetBeans IDE 7.4 was released on October 15, 2013.

NetBeans IDE 8.0 was released on March 18, 2014.

NetBeans IDE 8.1 was released on November 4, 2015.

NetBeans IDE 8.2 was released on October 3, 2016."

IntelliJ open projects, build, debug so fast.  I still love Netbeans
ways of things, but it's so slow.  When I  add or remove a Jar, it may
take forever.  Debug, build, etc.  Just impossible to work with.
This is unacceptable.

Geertjan, what would you say about this situation?





On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Thomas Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
If you only promote apps that “will not stop at some point”, your list ought to have zero entries as all software will stop being supported “at some point”.

As far as Netbeans is concerned, I believe it has recently been transitioned to become an Apache project.  So it will continue being developed - but how well seems to now depend on the community rather than Sun/Oracle’s past largesse.

Anyway, Netbeans can manage projects that are JDK 9.  Most of the problems seem to come if you actually try to run the IDE itself with JDK 9.

tom

On Oct 6, 2017, at 12:16 PM, kupawlak <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm also interested if NetBeans is still in development. We would like to add the software to our database  https://kubadownload.com/, but we promote only apps that are working and will not stop at some point. Any suggestion?





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Re: Where is the Netbeans 9.0?

wadechandler
Administrator
In reply to this post by Nan Null
On Oct 8, 2017 12:45, "Nam Nguyen" <[hidden email]> wrote:
The developers worked for Oracle, I understand they have family or
have bills to pay.  But sometimes, a hard decision must be made.  If
they just want to work for money, don't care much about an "open
source" project, then that probably said enough about Netbeans and why
it failed.

"Why it failed"...not sure that has an understanding of the nuances at play here. There are actually other small time IDEs out there. IntelliJ, Eclipse, and NB have been on top. NB is being moved to an actually more open model and foundation while it is still a successful project instead of killing it off; a good thing.


But if they wanted to work for something of its mission of being an
open development IDE, then maybe they should have known to leave.

Come on Nam.

Clearly, at this point, we know that for whatever reason, Oracle is
now abandoning it.  So, if developers left Netbeans en-massed, they
probably have done it earlier as OpenOffice has shown.  That would
save years of behind the curve for Netbeans (compared to other IDE).
They wouldn't lose so much users and market share.

No, I am pretty sure Oracle would have had a decision to make, since the process to transfer code a foundation is expensive, and not like selling a sandwich, a car, or even a house, and with nobody left internally with the understandings to do it quickly, probably would have went the opposite direction of which they have now. They have never made money off NetBeans as a product directly, so let's be clear.

Users have learned other IDE and started to get used to them, it would
be much harder now.  Not impossible, but definitely not very
desirable.

Not listening to developers proved to be very fatal.  I also suggested
early on that Netbeans embraces Android.  That was rejected as
speculation because we don't know if Android successful or not.  Well,
speculation is one thing, vision is another.  Maybe luck is also
another.

But even more important, the conflict of interest between Oracle and
Android just make Netbeans hard to succeed right at that point.  It
was deem to fail right 7 years ago.

Same with Gradle, but Attila has great support for Gradle, and supporting his work is open. Look at how popular Visual Studio Code is becoming, and MS is not doing all the work there. There is a lot to do in such a project.

I have had ideas I could not get others to specifically work on over the years, but that didn't mean leave and give up. There have been plenty of ways to contribute, and now their are even more. Whether they get in is up to the doers at ASF.


Another thing was that they stripped the IDE off the GUI development
of JEE.  That's because of their own JDeveloper's money making (or
losing) product.
That's another important indication to any developer working on
Netbeans to move on.

I think this is another misunderstanding of nuances at play in the market. Their are plenty of WYSIWYG editors that people no longer wanted to use. SPA frameworks and new ways of building are the reality.

Plus, and before that, developers wanted more control over the produced code. Quite different than Swing where skinning and layout are different, with LAFs etc, the model just didn't stick, and for good reasons, to web tech; new languages, transpiling, competing components of the stack, etc (much more to this story).



So, we knew along time ago what Netbeans would become from all the facts.

There was only one reasonable choice for the Netbeans developers at
that point: leave it to help it.

Why I say it again now?  Because if the Netbeans leaderships move to
Apache and become a majority of it, I will definitely not join it. My
impact will be minimal, but I think the rest can be known by now what
will happen regardless.  As I said, it's not just open source, it's
about whether the project listens to developers and make a strong/hard
decision when the fate is clear.  If they could not make such a
decision, they don't get my vote.

This doesn't represent how Apache works. I suggest to read up on "The Apache Way", then get involved "now" if you want to make a difference. The slowness you referred to isn't a systemic issue, but related to some specifics, and for instance, you could work on that. I plan to.

I am current working on moving the site over. Others are doing a lot of other things. We have to get things moved over first. Then we can start the new path of NB in earnest.

Wade


====================
Wade Chandler

Software Engineer
NetBeans and Open Source Contributor
12