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Visual Web Is Dead?

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Visual Web Is Dead?

frazzman
Why is Visual Web Development being removed from NetBeans?
What is going to replace or update this feature?

Not having visual web development means people might as well use some text editor or (shiver) DreamWeaver or the like.

Are there new Java features that require a new approach to this type of feature?

 [Question]




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Re: Visual Web Is Dead?

Rick Fincher-3
This was done several years ago, there was a big controversy about it at
the time.

JSP has been superceded by Facelets for Java Server Faces web
development.  In JSF 2.0 Facelets are the default view technlogy,
although JSP can still be used.

Trying to support a visual designer for web apps becomes a monumental
task because there are so many browsers, so many versions of each
browser in use, and so many different OS's that those browsers run under.

In addition the browsers in the field are updated on an almost weekly basis.

Add to that the fact that JavaScript is implemented slightly differently
on all of the above, and you end up with a big bucket of worms.

It just became unsupportable with the limited resources that the
NetBeans team has.

One of the nice things about Facelets is that the files are standard
XHTML files.  So, if you have a visual layout tool that works for HTML
you can use it as the prototyper for Facelets.   Then just modify the
tags to the <h: or <p:, or <ice: versions and adjust from there.

With Facelets and CSS you can modify the layout of your page without
recompiling the program.

Just modify your stye sheet and hit the "reload" button on the browser
to see what the change does.

One of the problems with visual tools is that CSS has become the primary
layout technology for HTML.  If you've used DreamWeaver with CSS, you
know that is much more difficult to use than in the old drag and drop
days, and the layouts don't work with all browsers anyway.

With code completion and other tools built into the NetBeans editor for
XHTML, CSS, PrimeFaces, IceFaces, etc. it ends up being easier to use
the editor than anything else, so far.

I usually use userAgenUtils (http://user-agent-utils.java.net/) to find
out which browser and OS the app is running on, then load a stylesheet
that works for that combination.  You can pick your target browsers
first and add fixes as necessary to support additional browser/OS combos
later.

If you are in a corporate environment where you can dictate the browser
and OS to use, your life is a little easier.

If you have to support the general public, you just have to be aware of
things like Safari on iOS (iPhone, iPad) don't allow file uploads, and
most users of the iPad don't know that you can scroll a scroll box on
the page with 2 fingers (one finger scrolls the whole page).

Those things are a problem even if you have a working visual layout tool.

And Internet Explorer is just a freaking disaster.  It's getting better,
though.  You still have to decide which versions you will support.  
Internet Explorer 9 is much better, but it doesn't work on XP.

The 32 and 64 bit versions of Explorer are different and you have to
account for that.

The browsers are getting better and more standardized as time goes on
though, so there's hope.


Rick



On 3/24/2012 2:05 PM, frazzman wrote:

> Why is Visual Web Development being removed from NetBeans?
> What is going to replace or update this feature?
>
> Not having visual web development means people might as well use some text editor or (shiver) DreamWeaver or the like.
>
> Are there new Java features that require a new approach to this type of feature?
>
>   [Question]
>
>
>

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Re: Visual Web Is Dead?

frazzman
Thanks Rick,

Maybe with html 5.0 and CSS 30 and facelets, there may be some way to
create a unified set of components and then a useful visual design tool
down the road?

I wondered about some of the dates on some of the posts and some of the
visual web files.

Fraser

On 03/24/2012 03:19 PM, Rick Fincher wrote:

> This was done several years ago, there was a big controversy about it
> at the time.
>
> JSP has been superceded by Facelets for Java Server Faces web
> development.  In JSF 2.0 Facelets are the default view technlogy,
> although JSP can still be used.
>
> Trying to support a visual designer for web apps becomes a monumental
> task because there are so many browsers, so many versions of each
> browser in use, and so many different OS's that those browsers run under.
>
> In addition the browsers in the field are updated on an almost weekly
> basis.
>
> Add to that the fact that JavaScript is implemented slightly
> differently on all of the above, and you end up with a big bucket of
> worms.
>
> It just became unsupportable with the limited resources that the
> NetBeans team has.
>
> One of the nice things about Facelets is that the files are standard
> XHTML files.  So, if you have a visual layout tool that works for HTML
> you can use it as the prototyper for Facelets.   Then just modify the
> tags to the <h: or <p:, or <ice: versions and adjust from there.
>
> With Facelets and CSS you can modify the layout of your page without
> recompiling the program.
>
> Just modify your stye sheet and hit the "reload" button on the browser
> to see what the change does.
>
> One of the problems with visual tools is that CSS has become the
> primary layout technology for HTML.  If you've used DreamWeaver with
> CSS, you know that is much more difficult to use than in the old drag
> and drop days, and the layouts don't work with all browsers anyway.
>
> With code completion and other tools built into the NetBeans editor
> for XHTML, CSS, PrimeFaces, IceFaces, etc. it ends up being easier to
> use the editor than anything else, so far.
>
> I usually use userAgenUtils (http://user-agent-utils.java.net/) to
> find out which browser and OS the app is running on, then load a
> stylesheet that works for that combination.  You can pick your target
> browsers first and add fixes as necessary to support additional
> browser/OS combos later.
>
> If you are in a corporate environment where you can dictate the
> browser and OS to use, your life is a little easier.
>
> If you have to support the general public, you just have to be aware
> of things like Safari on iOS (iPhone, iPad) don't allow file uploads,
> and most users of the iPad don't know that you can scroll a scroll box
> on the page with 2 fingers (one finger scrolls the whole page).
>
> Those things are a problem even if you have a working visual layout tool.
>
> And Internet Explorer is just a freaking disaster.  It's getting
> better, though.  You still have to decide which versions you will
> support.  Internet Explorer 9 is much better, but it doesn't work on XP.
>
> The 32 and 64 bit versions of Explorer are different and you have to
> account for that.
>
> The browsers are getting better and more standardized as time goes on
> though, so there's hope.
>
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On 3/24/2012 2:05 PM, frazzman wrote:
>> Why is Visual Web Development being removed from NetBeans?
>> What is going to replace or update this feature?
>>
>> Not having visual web development means people might as well use some
>> text editor or (shiver) DreamWeaver or the like.
>>
>> Are there new Java features that require a new approach to this type
>> of feature?
>>
>>   [Question]
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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Re: Visual Web Is Dead?

Rick Fincher-3
Yes, if the browsers all get on the same sheet of music it should be
possible.  The unified components may be a problem.  All of the current
widget toolkits use Javascript libraries.  PrimeFaces uses JQuery, for
example.

Like you say, with some of the features of HTML5 maybe things will move
toward a unified system.

R

On 3/24/2012 7:46 PM, Fraser Doswell wrote:

> Thanks Rick,
>
> Maybe with html 5.0 and CSS 30 and facelets, there may be some way to
> create a unified set of components and then a useful visual design
> tool down the road?
>
> I wondered about some of the dates on some of the posts and some of
> the visual web files.
>
> Fraser
>
> On 03/24/2012 03:19 PM, Rick Fincher wrote:
>> This was done several years ago, there was a big controversy about it
>> at the time.
>>
>> JSP has been superceded by Facelets for Java Server Faces web
>> development.  In JSF 2.0 Facelets are the default view technlogy,
>> although JSP can still be used.
>>
>> Trying to support a visual designer for web apps becomes a monumental
>> task because there are so many browsers, so many versions of each
>> browser in use, and so many different OS's that those browsers run
>> under.
>>
>> In addition the browsers in the field are updated on an almost weekly
>> basis.
>>
>> Add to that the fact that JavaScript is implemented slightly
>> differently on all of the above, and you end up with a big bucket of
>> worms.
>>
>> It just became unsupportable with the limited resources that the
>> NetBeans team has.
>>
>> One of the nice things about Facelets is that the files are standard
>> XHTML files.  So, if you have a visual layout tool that works for
>> HTML you can use it as the prototyper for Facelets.   Then just
>> modify the tags to the <h: or <p:, or <ice: versions and adjust from
>> there.
>>
>> With Facelets and CSS you can modify the layout of your page without
>> recompiling the program.
>>
>> Just modify your stye sheet and hit the "reload" button on the
>> browser to see what the change does.
>>
>> One of the problems with visual tools is that CSS has become the
>> primary layout technology for HTML.  If you've used DreamWeaver with
>> CSS, you know that is much more difficult to use than in the old drag
>> and drop days, and the layouts don't work with all browsers anyway.
>>
>> With code completion and other tools built into the NetBeans editor
>> for XHTML, CSS, PrimeFaces, IceFaces, etc. it ends up being easier to
>> use the editor than anything else, so far.
>>
>> I usually use userAgenUtils (http://user-agent-utils.java.net/) to
>> find out which browser and OS the app is running on, then load a
>> stylesheet that works for that combination.  You can pick your target
>> browsers first and add fixes as necessary to support additional
>> browser/OS combos later.
>>
>> If you are in a corporate environment where you can dictate the
>> browser and OS to use, your life is a little easier.
>>
>> If you have to support the general public, you just have to be aware
>> of things like Safari on iOS (iPhone, iPad) don't allow file uploads,
>> and most users of the iPad don't know that you can scroll a scroll
>> box on the page with 2 fingers (one finger scrolls the whole page).
>>
>> Those things are a problem even if you have a working visual layout
>> tool.
>>
>> And Internet Explorer is just a freaking disaster.  It's getting
>> better, though.  You still have to decide which versions you will
>> support.  Internet Explorer 9 is much better, but it doesn't work on XP.
>>
>> The 32 and 64 bit versions of Explorer are different and you have to
>> account for that.
>>
>> The browsers are getting better and more standardized as time goes on
>> though, so there's hope.
>>
>>
>> Rick
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/24/2012 2:05 PM, frazzman wrote:
>>> Why is Visual Web Development being removed from NetBeans?
>>> What is going to replace or update this feature?
>>>
>>> Not having visual web development means people might as well use
>>> some text editor or (shiver) DreamWeaver or the like.
>>>
>>> Are there new Java features that require a new approach to this type
>>> of feature?
>>>
>>>   [Question]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>

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Re: Visual Web Is Dead?

Glenn Holmer
In reply to this post by frazzman
On Sat, 2012-03-24 at 18:05 +0000, frazzman wrote:
> Why is Visual Web Development being removed from NetBeans?
> What is going to replace or update this feature?

It was removed quite some time ago.

> Not having visual web development means people might as well use some
> text editor or (shiver) DreamWeaver or the like.

<a href="http://netbeans.org/project_downloads/www/NetBeans%20JavaOne%202010%">http://netbeans.org/project_downloads/www/NetBeans%20JavaOne%202010%
20Slides/netbeans-javaone2010-s314648-give-me-jsf-editor.pdf

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